The cat is nude

03:19graefchen Heya limesHi
pushcx Howdy, ask questions about the site anytime here!
it is an open door time to drop in and ask questions. So let's say that in the chat.

...30Oh, hey, Gretchen. Where's my, yeah.

...45Let's see, I'm sorting out my to-do list. visibility let's see if we can improve that let's see how much time there is today all right so yeah when folks aren't asking questions and we're having meta discussions that's a discussion to have we i work on maintaining the site which is mostly a Exercise in showing that there really is no magic to maintaining the site. It's a web app. Code on it. I have plenty of bugs. And then, yeah, the other part is to try and timebox how much time I spend coding. graefchen Because of the link to the top level url of the vatican I just wanted to know how much every tld was shared. limesHmm
Because it would like me to spend all my days. But I can't quite. Oh, look, one of my stories I submitted is on the homepage. That's neat.

04:52link to the top of the URL, how much every TLD was shared. Hmm, are you saying just as stories submitted or are you including links from comments? That's a pretty straightforward query to write either way. So we could do that.

05:21graefchen just as stories. limesLurk
just stories all right let's do that it's a fun way to start the stream and i can kind of write that query off the top of my head usually i i want people to write their own but this is fine let's hop over and start up a database and then

...50Actually, how do we want to pull it out? I guess it's pretty straightforward with if we join to the domains table, right? So let's select substr. I just want to see this work. R index example.com.

06:27I think that'll give us all of it, right? What did I type up? Let's build smaller. Let's start with our index.

...43Oh, I thought there was an index.

...51Is there a stir index?

07:14substring index there we go all right so string delimiter and count so when we say substring index sample.com we need the delimiter and i guess we need the count no that's that's the opposite of what we want Is there a substring R index?

...57Count as positive, count as negative. There we go. Okay, that looks good. And we'll say .co.uk. Okay.

08:12Of course, we run into the issue with places that don't sell second-level domains like co.uk, and I'm going to punt on that one. If you want to handle it, you've got to write that query. So we will say, let's select count star comma that from rather than We want to say domain from domains join stories on domains ID is stories domain ID. Group by two order by. Actually, let's. Let's swap these orders.

09:10Group by one, order by two, desk limit 30. I got about 30 lines of screen. All right.

...25Well, Grave Chen, there's your answer. I'll grab that into the scratch for the archives. But it looks like...

...40Pretty nerdy set of domains. Probably the most interesting is .io showing up pretty high. Because the nerd predilection of it. That's probably what's going on with RS too. Oh yeah, and there's AI. That one's probably been climbing up the last two years.

10:05graefchen uii, thanks limesOks
Interesting question.

...12I wonder if there are more X, Y, Z links that get deleted. I don't wonder it so much that I want to write the query, but X, Y, Z links are so cheap and so often used for spam that every time I see an X, Y, Z It's like, oh, the base rate of this is spam is probably higher. All right.

11:09davidofterra Hello
Somebody DM me something.

...21Oh, hey, David.

...39So let's go look at the polls.

...46Yeah, so I saw FedAmp had submitted a bunch of front end fixes. Oh, man, this is not filtered to open. I was going to say, no, that was. All right, we've got a lot going on here. What order do I want to go through these? I don't think it matters too much. Let's just start at the bottom. I'm going to guess that fed imps are going to be pretty straightforward. So I'm going to start with all of those at once. What do we have here?

12:54So if anybody doesn't recognize Federico's name, he figures out everything broken on the front end, especially related to accessibility. Why am I not logged in? Let me rotate this off stream for a second. This happened a couple of weeks ago. twitchtd good morning!
I don't know why this is happening.

14:08This is not great.

...39So I'm fighting GitHub off screen here.

15:01This It is a pet peeve having worked on login flows when the error cases are a lot less polished than the normal flow. And GitHub has usually been pretty good about this. So let's do that, and let's, on the post stream, repair GitHub buffet secret.

...51Where was I? What the heck was I doing? We were doing making comments let's ease i'm actually signed in.

16:09links at the list of. This is for.

...21This.

...28I have an anchor tag broken, probably. Subtree target. Oh, hey, Thomas. Nice to see you.

...44Idea, story, comments. Why is there a... Why add a CSS ID?

17:11oh to maintain the old one okay okay that's great it is a i know it's been a few months since i last griped so i feel okay repeating this gripe but i feel like in rails i spend a lot of time translating things between IDs and CSS classes and CSS IDs and JavaScript identifiers and database identifiers. There is just a level of primitive obsession in Rails that is especially obnoxious because we have to do all of these things over and over. And it's like, yeah, we could, wrap this up in a helper, but then it's in a really random place. We could put it on the model, but now the model knows about CSS.

18:23Types will fix this, right? Lint is failing?

...38That's a weird one.

...48For this, I must have broken main. Can I break main?

...58Oh, I broke main. Let's fix that first.

19:06Stateless format. OK, we don't have those.

...20I broke main a while ago. All right, let's figure out what I broke and fix that.

20:16I swear I ran the build after, oh, maybe I was into running the story specs and not the flag specs. It's very possible.

...58Okay, so there's whatever that story fixes. Let's do vote first. So there was maybe a week ago, there was a big meta threat over the weekend about LLMs and flags. And I tweaked some code to a while ago, maybe a year or two, I changed it so that flags didn't lower a story's score, which is to say penalize it and push it off the front page, unless the flagger also hid the story and hadn't commented. And I was trying to add a cost to flagging And that didn't really work. We basically lost the automated signal from flags. And so it was very hard to push a story off the homepage. This was just not at all obvious. So I reverted that and I broke some tests, apparently. Or I failed to update some tests.

22:28So how are we doing here? Let's go through this one by one.

...43This is just whether you can vote at all. Voting historian flags.

...58Let's, we should expect the score to be, does this title match?

23:27Yeah, so this is a random user.

...41Now, this is a random user who can vote on a story. OK, so if you have a flag, expect the score to be 1. We should expect 0.

24:00Right, because this was so this is how handling is hard.

...17Minus one to zero, so we start at zero. After this.

...36Yeah. So these are all, these must've all been touched for the previous commit where I said the user had to hide. So 68. So if you go from the story starts at one and you, flag it should drop to zero with one flag and then what was that other line 79 so if you have uploaded it and then you remove that up when you swap that upload to a flag it comes on

25:37And then what did I break in notifications?

...59Comments on stories with more flags than upvotes. 32, not 22. Yes, so that one is just another version of this. OK. Let's see if we get a green build, which we should.

27:26Of course, even with that fixed, we should get a new build here.

...42All of those PRs are still going to be failing because there's no way for me to just say, hey, GitHub, rebase all of these on domain.

28:00What do you want feedback about?

...28Being a little snarky there, but Don't implement programming languages in YAML. If you are specifying an imperative set of steps that build up state, that's just called programming. Use a programming language.

29:02A big chunk of the frustration in GitHub Actions is that it is a programming language and the syntax is YAML. It's the same gripe I have about Ansible.

...30So this ought to be just about done. Yeah, so it's doing the slow thing. So that'll take another minute, but all right. Build is green. I'm going to be copying and pasting that.

30:11Yeah, let's just rebase this on the main. And we're good. Admin like the title input. Oh, sure. He's done a few of these. Title minimum length. Yeah, this is. This is a misdesign in Active Record that he's working around here.

...48The Active Record validations are tied to a field. But then when you want to introspect them, there is no way to ask a field what its validations are. It is not object oriented in that direction. They're off on this validator. And so then you have to ask which one is the title. And even though there is a small list of types of validators, you have to do a class match rather than, it would be really nice to be able to say like validators, well, to be able to say title.validators.length or something like that. I don't know. This is fine. It's going through generations, but this is fine.

32:10So that was 2029. Can't type. Oh, we're typing. pushcx https://www.moergo.com/collecti…
I'm into keyboards and I keep thinking about getting one of these. I really, really would love to find one and type on it. So I got to like find Chicago keyboard enthusiasts. But it's because, you know, it's a little too cheap to YOLO or a little too pricey to YOLO. But it's a small run columnar staggered plus ergonomic curve. Ooh. I just really got to see how it fits my hands. It's a neat looking keyboard. Of course, if I swap it in, my typos will go through the roof for a month or two. Invisible characters.

33:36What's this one? Submit story form can be fooled. Oh, I remember this. Yeah.

34:08Oh, that's really well commented. Wow. Changing code whitespace into real spaces. That's fine.

...25OK. I mean, why is this failing?

...41That may be legitimate. Why is this failing?

...54Syntax errors. Oh, yeah, there's no commas. OK.

35:26Where is the one here, right?

...45Yeah.

37:16How was I going to put that?

...53So invisible characters is going to need a minute.

38:04I don't mean what?

...12There we go. OK. JPEG avatars. Oh, this one. This, so this is a bug where when we grab avatars, we just sort of assume that they would be PNGs and they are not necessarily. Oh, this site. This site is mildly exasperating. They have really interesting technical content and then some kind of weird, pet peeve about JavaScript, I guess. And so if you switch away from the tab and come back, it has some weird rant about JavaScript that overlays the whole article. And especially, you know, if an article is more than 200 words, there's a real chance I'm going to swap tabs while I'm reading it. Or, you know, it has an interesting idea. So I open another tab. And so the actual experience of trying to read something on this blog is just repeatedly being interrupted and getting a chore to close its ranty pop-up over and over and over. And so all of the good vibes of, hey, what a nice, thoughtful blog that is interesting and informative and, you know, I like a bunch is just entirely blown away by like, I see it and I have this gut reaction of like, ah, fuck, I have to close a pop-up. It's... Very odd choice by the author.

40:18Huh. I just took whatever the ground found more suitable to serve.

...41every jpeg wait so is this all outdated so the caster gets I think it gets blown away on every deploy because it's under the rails route. I'll double check on prod.

41:46Public is a directory. Aha, public avatars is actually symlinked. All right, so this is maintained between deploys, monster shared public avatars. twitchtd The last time I experimented with my keyboard, I tried to switch to the dvorak layout, failed that experiment due to too much muscle memory
we have 60 000 that's about right that's no that's weird oh yeah dvorak layout is nice so one of the things that caught my eye about the glove 80 is it's columnar and i've I've got a couple of columnar keyboards around here. I've built a few. And so on columnar keyboards, I use the Norman layout and that little bit of difference between columnar keyboards and staggered ones. My brain is comfortable thinking that staggered is always QWERTY and columnar is always Norman. There's a little bit of a transition sometimes, but That little bit of difference is enough for me. If I had to do it over again, I would probably choose Colmac instead of Norman. They're pretty close, and Colmac has drivers for other operating systems and all that kind of thing. They'd be a little more convenient and probably worth giving up the, you know, 2% theoretical improvement of Norman over Colmac. I am just kind of ballparking that. Norman website has its own personal benchmarks that claim it's, you know, 90% better than every other. I'm teasing a little. So the weird thing is that we don't have 200,000 avatars because we should have an avatar cache for every user and we get spidered aggressively enough that every single one of these should be in the cache. So that's strange.

44:20I don't understand that one.

...30So we have expiring, we have show. We try to fetch the user and then on the model

...48and then we fall back to their Identicon.

45:00You know, something must be bugged here. So let's, instead of doing this kind of log, which is just, you know, it goes to a log file that will never get read Let's send it up to Telebugs, and then it will probably get read. Oh, wait. What's the individual user that is broken? Ramys? That's a... All right. Yep, so. What is Ramey org? Rabbit holes on rabbit holes.

46:01OK, I vaguely remember this. Alright, so.

...11How many of these are JPEG?

...29You know, and especially if we have multiple sizes for each user. One, two, three, four. Yeah. So 60K divided by four is what? 60 divided by four is about 12 and a half. Only 12,000 users have avatars? Something must be expiring these, right? Because that's only a small fraction of our users.

47:20All right, so 5,800 of them are JPEG.

...3313k14 are PNG. A quarter of them are JPEG. Wild. Let's look at the data on these.

...52Yeah, okay, so more than a year old. Or no, coming up on a year old. Maybe I didn't get enough coffee this morning.

48:43Okay, so we used to do it like this.

...52We still do, right?

49:04Yeah, so it's the same URL. And it feels unlikely that Gravatar had a behavior change.

...17Unless maybe they made it years ago, where if you uploaded a JPEG years ago, they served it as such. And then they changed that to automatically transcode to PNG. But they didn't backfill. And so people who uploaded years ago This is tackling a memory. Have we talked about JPEG some other time?

...56Oh man, come on.

50:13It feels very vaguely familiar.

...27So I think for Ramy, if I fetch it again, I'll just get another JPEG, right? That would answer my question. And hey, look, we're already logged into prod.

...48And I'm going to do this off screen because it's going to have the MD5 sum of his email address in the URL that flashes by. And that's a small enough space to enumerate. So let's just be a little bit paranoid. What's my method here? Let's find the method. Fetched underscore avatar.

51:47what i would really like is to see this url so i can curl it and play with it all right so i'm grabbing raimi's user object and

52:18Grabbing that md5 sum and that curl2. Let's grab that string for avatar.com slash avatar slash that md5 sum. And then let's grab Those URL parameters, the question mark r equals pg at intercom, size is 100. Let's say curl dash i. What does it come back with? Comes back with an error, because I got to put quotes, because I used an ampersand. And it serves a JPEG. OK.

53:18Oh, and it serves a JPEG with a last modified of 2012. So that would fit my hypothesis as well.

54:05Huh, speaking of things that changed. Did that say SHA-256? No, our code definitely says MD5. So we are out of date there. Nice of them to keep the very old one working. What I'm looking for is we could say size with S equals 200. Can we say format? We can force a default. We can have a rating. Secure parameters. Apparently not. Anything about PNG in here? Apparently not. How about JPEG? How about JPG? All right, let me clear that terminal and bring it up. And let's do shared public avatars.

55:34Okay, well, at least we don't have any GIFs uploaded. That's so odd.

...582, I never remember if it's 0 or 1. So we'll do that.

56:14God, the spacing. Huh. A bunch of these with 100 in the file name are not 100 by 100. Man, the more I touch this, the more weird shit we're finding.

...41But at least it's all PNGs and JPEGs.

57:52I feel like I'm just finding a bunch of bugs in Gravatar.

58:17What else? Any other really strange stuff? OK.

59:13Let's get out of Prod and figure out where I was.

...32Oh, that was one thing.

...59Which. It's weird there's no GIF, because those used to be reasonably common in the early teens. Someone must have uploaded a GIF. davidofterra Any BMPs or TIFFs?
Maybe they were converting GIFs to PNGs, but they didn't convert JPEGs, because, you know, they're such different formats. Yeah, no. No BMPs, no TIFFs. I ran the file on all of them, and I got only PNGs and So this is a reasonable fix. Content type for data.

01:00:51Okay, so it is just reading it off the disk. So it's passed through Gravatar, so I feel comfortable that it's going to be a file. This will handle 0 byte files just fine, because at this point it's just a string. OK. This seems like a reasonable fix. All right.

01:01:47I'll say thanks.

01:02:54Will that form it reasonably? Yeah.

01:03:51graefchen short question, why is that 30k instead if 40k a surprise? limesLurk
Why is that 30 K instead. i'm not sure where you see 30.

01:04:10Was that. typo did I see.

...20graefchen 60 and 80, sorry limesD
Yeah, Gryffchen, I'm not sure what your question is, but there's so many oddities, I really wanna... 1680, so why is it... So 60K is what I saw on prod, which is a weird number, because there should be four sizes for each, and the whole site gets spidered repeatedly. So we should have served all of them at this point, And so there should be all sizes times all users. Because even if somebody hasn't created a gravatar, we say, hey, give me the identicon backup so they have a consistent avatar image. And again, we cache those locally. So that's how I got to those numbers. graefchen ahh limesNoted
There's four sizes, right?

01:05:19So yeah, there's 60K on prod and then one, two, three, four sizes of each. Yeah. So there's inline, which is used on comments. 32, I do not remember what we use that for. 200 is for the profile page. I don't remember what we use 104 and not worth running that's part of it down i'm not really worried if we grab sizes we don't use but.

01:06:56That's a weird one.

01:07:09Another front end fix from Federico. Caches color. Story has a negative one and the cache looks

...28not div drop down parent give star comments label link tags image form cache is cache okay yeah

01:08:43Just make an issue to track this, otherwise you'll probably be fed up.

01:09:19I think comments as well, right? Let's check.

...41Yeah, comment.bad.

01:11:07720Florian hi
kouhxp good morning Peter
A720 Florian, welcome.

...16Howdy. Cow XP? Welcome. Who? Cow? I don't know.

01:12:36720Florian what are currently doing?
720Florian *you
pushcx https://github.com/lobsters/lob…
I am reviewing pull requests. And this one, which I'll throw in here in case you want to click on it, that I'm about to merge really prompted this realization that we've had this class of bugs that keeps coming back and back. This strategy is fundamentally wrong.

01:13:42kouhxp how does one level up from lurker to user of lobste.rs?
pushcx https://lobste.rs/chat
This was 2024, okay. kouhxp haha
So if you look at this page, it talks about the best way to get an invite is to drop by the chat room and just say something that doesn't sound like you want to spam the site. You could say, hey, you posted my blog. Can I have an invite? Or you could say, there's this story and I have a informative and not flamebaity comment I would like to leave on it. And if you have something reasonably smart to say, someone will be like, oh yeah, that sounds legit. You should leave that comment. Let me send you an invite so I can do that. And it can take a second. kouhxp I have no specific thing to post rn, i'm in the us
It is most often active in U.S. time zones during the U.S. work week, really, because we're all shirking, but yeah. Well, then it should be pretty straightforward for you.

01:15:23That's okay.

...50kouhxp did you come up with mockturtle for the bot? alice reference?
this is a bug this is a good first issue this is design related great all right so that's 2032 so let's grab that for the notes

01:16:20kouhxp Hunter Madison
no i did not name mock turtle it is a reference to alice in wonderland huh who created the first mock turtle i can't remember if that was there have been like three versions of mock turtle over the years all right let me finish this thought here

01:17:00kouhxp yeah sorry
yeah it might have been hunter i i was thinking it was hammer church all right so there's that did i put that in the

...29So let's jump up here. And I want to say there's an archived repo. Oh, a little higher. There's an archived repo for the first version of Mock Turtle. Yeah. And then four commits. Yeah. Oh, looks like Alan created it. kouhxp what happened to him
So Alan is a former mod of the site. Or it could also just be that Alan got it under source control. I really don't remember. There is a goodbye announce post if you want to find that. Not my personal story to tell.

01:18:23kouhxp ok fair enough
Let's go back to that. It's nothing terribly exciting, but you know, personal privacy. What year was that?

...43It went into the, it was like a, oh, the hosting update, yeah. That's what it was. Yeah. To focus on other projects. kouhxp curiouser and curiouser
it is worth noting that programmer programmer i never did learn to pronounce this his hosting company also renamed i want to say just a couple of months after that so yeah busy year for him

01:19:27It really is just a Life happens And in the same way it happened just before you join the stream, but like I Care a bunch about people's individual privacy and I try and be really respectful of that. And so I That's why I went back to be like, oh, how did we choose to phrase that before? In the same way that just before joined we were debugging somebody's gravatar and i pulled stuff off stream just to make sure i didn't show the md5 some of their email address on stream because yeah that's personal info and at this point md5 sums are practically reversible or if you cared about the random user that i picked you would be able to be like ah which email did this user sign up to lobsters with and it's just like That's a really minor thing and it's probably harmless, but it's other people's business and I don't need to share that. I should restore this. It's an issue. All right, so there's the first wave of a bunch of PRs. Oh, Thomas, you must have done something here while I'm streaming if you touched it 25 minutes ago. Are you still here in the chat? twitchtd ya, I was just resolving conflicts
So, ooh, this updated yesterday? That's great. I was worried this one was going to get abandoned. What looks... Resolving conflicts? Okay. Is there anything new for me to review, or are you just keeping it up to date? twitchtd nothing new, just keeping it up to date
Did I touch SQL recently? OK. Oh, because I touched this query, didn't I? Yep. All right. So this is the one I just commented on. Yes. All right, let's run through all of these then. And I'm putting the avatars one last because that's a pretty big PR. Adding user excludes to the top page. This one's a bug fix.

01:22:26Well, they have a, so for some reason, this one has attracted, this bug has attracted two different slop PRs. And so seeing an Identicon instead of a face, all right, well, this at least has a profile that looks a little active and not five minutes old. Maybe they just drew that themselves and it's a little skull or something. OK, so they must have added it to the scope. Yeah. We have. What is it, like two lines above has filtering tags, right? Maybe the next scope. I remember there was one neighboring top that filtered tags. Yeah, right here. All right, that's pretty reasonable. And if we do this, we don't have to touch anything else by having a default. That's pretty much it. I'm going to run the build. It's going to fail because I broke main, right? Speaking of breaking main, I was fixing... What was it?

01:24:16I was fixing caddy config and logging. And I was playing the whack-a-mole game of, oh, I got it. So let me push this to main and then run it through a deploy pipeline so I can see it works. Oh, it doesn't work. All right, well, let me edit that to fix it because it'll work this time and I might as well force push. And I did that like, well, I guess I did that twice, but I think I actually did it three times. Maybe one of those I didn't push up because I eventually was like, Peter, you're in this done loop and everyone is going to see that You can't get this PR right on the first try, this is why I pay hatch box to do so much of the maintenance and never get system config stuff right on the first track. Alright, so this was fine this one's going to fail just because I broke stuff on main. let's take a look at 1999.

01:25:21Looks good.

...51All right, so this is not user excludes. This is all my filters on slash top.

01:26:04Clean up merge story view with merge conflicts. Oh, I bet that's because I just merged Federico's link fixes. Yeah, I already know JCS is not a fan of the merge story view now. Also not a fan of merge stories in general. Second is probably optional, but the comment counts were wrong since merging a story adds. There should probably be one end comments at the top and hide all the others. Removes the duplicate story headings. Flattens all the story threads. This is

...51Okay, so shouldn't have been merged in the first place. Yeah, this is a disagreement about merging presented as UI. And this is what the UI used to look like a couple of years ago.

01:28:18kouhxp looked great!
I'm not going to collapse the diff because it moved too far, right? No, he just deleted a bunch of stuff.

...54Why change this?

01:29:10Story.

...20What changed in the model?

...38I don't understand the purpose of this test change. Why create it and then merge it in? Instead of just creating it merged, if there isn't hook on the model, And then just deleting a test.

01:30:38Yeah, this is reintroducing a bug about memoization. That's why the tests changed. And you deleted that one. I remember that. OK.

01:31:14dlamz can I ask a moderation question about a particular comment on the site?
dlamz warning: it's about the shitshow omarchy thread
yeah give me a second to finish writing this comment but if you want to type that out or throw a link give me just a second i figured that was where it was going to be that was the last place i removed comments i believe if it is about the three that were removed saying political violence they were the author saying that their political opponents should have violence done to them which not exactly great and acceptable

01:32:43Is this also him? This was also him. Yeah.

01:33:28dlamz I'm wondering to what extent it's okay to scour the internet for people's profiles on other sites and start cross linking content e.g. https://lobste.rs/c/ompv9d. in this case, the twitter username is identical to the lobsters username, but it kinda irked me. perhaps it irked me because that thread was already so off topic to begin with 🤷‍♂️
So I haven't I don't instantly recognize that comment from the short ID and I haven't clicked on it, but that's a pretty good and pointed question that's getting into. The brigading rule and. that's certainly. tougher for. Like dhh who is a public figure where like everybody knows dhh his Twitter handle. But if it is some random person, yeah, I don't know how to make a principle distinction between the two off the top of my head, but let me finish this sentence.

01:34:54kouhxp I wouldn't be able to multitask like this
graefchen I think the whole context ... is complicated. limesHmm
I'm sort of not really multitasking because a lot of the... Like when I look at a comment, I know what I want to say in a second or two. Most of it is just typing. It's only sometimes I get halfway into it and I realize I'm saying something silly. That doesn't happen all the time. Sorry, merging UI. All right, so let's let's grab that comment here.

01:35:34OK. Oh, yeah, I remember this comment now.

...54so there's kind of an out here like if they later linked their twitter profile from their bio or from a home page in their bio it doesn't really feel like doxing But that i'm deliberately not looking because I think your general question is more interesting than like. Trying to punt on an excuse of well the guy linked it himself.

01:37:24dlamz I'm kinda irritated that the thread is talking about Gaza to begin with tbh, but now we're just bringing in tweets? ugh, idk
Yeah, so

01:38:31So Deliams, I think, I wish I had a better answer for you. I think you've got a really good point that this is blurring into doxing.

01:39:05and i i can't write one off the top of my head because like i just immediately found three edge cases i am sure there are nine more edge cases and you know there's kind of a a common thing where somebody leaves a comment and someone replies and is like oh i love your blog post from five years ago about xyz and that's somebody recognizing a username or making an association between like a github and a personal blog and that sort of thing is totally harmless especially when it's someone posting a compliment. So I don't want to like, I don't want to block that. So like

01:40:40Tone like we can generally. I think that might be. dlamz I dunno I'm just broadly irritated that even if a DHH post was solid technically, I just don't even want to open the thread on lobsters because of the shitshow it'll be
I don't know if that needs to get spelled out and always. everything's got to get spelled out eventually and we are like slowly growing and maturing our rules.

01:41:18dlamz (different complaint I know)
That is also a good thing. All right, so hang on.

...54The... Let's figure this. Hold on. Comment, and then the other thing was...

01:42:36twitchtd Maybe another way to say it is that there are certain controversial topics that don't contribute to lobste.rs but that get a lot of attention?
graefchen Probably because of the context of what DHH also said as a public person and that this should be definitively mentioned. limesLurk
Well, so. Thomas, that's kind of a related thing and I want to dig up.

...49An old comment I wrote. So.

01:43:01pushcx https://lobste.rs/s/hxwvm7/tag_…
Yeah, so we had.

...09a tag proposal earlier this year about conflicts generally. pushcx https://lobste.rs/s/1roeql/stal…
And then another big thread we had about it was this Stallman Report thread. Let me make sure I'm putting these in the notes too.

...39But I was actually looking for an old comment.

01:44:03This one. Yeah.

...17pushcx https://lobste.rs/s/lpvcsm/prop…
dlamz are DHH's thoughts on London relevant to what makes a distro a distro?
so controversy generally which is very often about a specific event a specific figure there's some people for whom it's very important and some people who are feel less personally affected or just don't want to get into it. pushcx https://lobste.rs/s/5yyuqm/mari…
Yeah, I haven't. Yeah, I wrote this comment nine years ago. I haven't been able to say this any better. So for what it's worth, I wrote this long comment before I became a mod.

01:45:13And this one specifically was Major figure in tour will is repeatedly accused of sexual assault. and I'm not going to read the whole comment aloud because you know I don't do six hour streams. I don't need to pad these out.

...37And I come back to this one because I don't know. how to my my thinking really hasn't changed on this one of the concept of controversy or drama or why do we want to talk about the politics of the individuals involved or the sex lives of the individuals involved in these famous projects and the gist of it is the stuff we build matters and the communities we use we we cultivate to build these things matters and none of these are easy conversations and they are very rarely especially polite conversations i mean especially in the omarki threat omarchi or omarki i don't know davidofterra Is this the heckler's promo comment you were looking for? https://lobste.rs/c/bro6fs
this particular threat on DHH where we have had people call for political violence before, but it's been a couple of years. That's rare. And that particular user was especially frustrated about that because they wrote it three times.

01:47:19Yeah, I think this is a pretty good comment about topicality and Heckler's promo, but I was specifically talking about Heckler's veto of where would we draw a line on is a topic too controversial to discuss? is it like this thread about rape if it's about the individual rather than the project does that count as too dramatic and should it be removed or when you see a post that is criticizing omarkey you know we're going to rehash dhh's character and so like kind of popping the stack a little to come back to controversial figures like as soon as you see like you see a and you know the comments are going to be b you see omarkey you know it's going to be dhh's character and i use the word rehash because I'm generally really negative on rehashing like I think it is bad for us if we have the same discussion over and over and we were just looking at that. pull request that would have reverted a bunch of changes to the story merging ui. bunch of that was because we were rehashing discussions over and over and the way story merging works the way it does now rather than the way joshua very rarely did it is to prevent rehashing over and over so like when you see a story that has a bunch of stuff merged into it we have one discussion instead of the same discussion five times

01:49:41And I say all of that to undermine myself because, yes, the Somarki thread rehashed a bunch of stuff on DHH's London post that I recognized in the last time we had a thread on DHH. It also had a bunch of new stuff specifically about Framework that they didn't just give him a bunch of laptops. They donated, I think it was $24,000 to the conference he started, kind of out of spite because he got booted from another conference for, eh. The impression I've gotten with no special knowledge was that he got booted because of the racist blow-up in his company about their, they had a name, it said 37 Signals, had an internal list of customers with silly names, which you can read as foreign names, and a bunch of employees kind of internally protested this and were like, hey, this is kind of gross, like you never make fun of a Steve Johnson, This is all like Southeast Asian names that sound silly in English. And that it escalated into a blow up where I think 40% of the company quit in a day. And then that a couple of months later rolled into DHH didn't get invited to give a keynote. And then he started his own conference so that he would get the keynote and now framework gave a bunch of money to that so like okay so i'm rehashing i don't know five years of ruby history there just to get to the point of this recent thread had new information that was not on previous rehashes is there a floor for how often we should do that whether that's perceived weight of new info or calendar days past since the last thread or some irritating bit of linear algebra combining the two terms? I don't know.

01:52:36dlamz reminds me of Wikipedia's "this article is undergoing significant changes right now" warning
dlamz yeah
Is that the one that like this article is about or has breaking news? That kind of header? Yeah. I see how that's in the neighborhood.

...58davidofterra When I was a mod on Reddit we used to limit it to one post per month.
So I don't know, I think we keep coming back to this one because. We're humans and we will always have controversies and our organizations we build and the cultures that they enable will always have controversies. And I think I said it. Yeah. Oh God, I am repeating myself. Like every human culture, we do this by lurching from crisis to crisis, trying to decide what's acceptable and not. what's individual and what's systemic. I am not aware of any human culture that is like, well, we are gonna figure out the rules of morality, and we're gonna spend a couple of weeks, a couple of months, a couple of years debating that, and then we'll be pretty much good. Jamamp_ Part of it is that, as you said, we're all a community and things don't happen in pure isolation. It's hard to not bring up relevant topics on an article. But the other part of it might bleed into the idea of punishment: at what point has someone "done their time" and we don't need to bring up something anymore if they've apologized and repaired? Not that it seems like DHH falls into this second category.
Instead it's, we have a bunch of unstated assumptions, and then something doesn't work, and so we have a controversy, we have a crisis, And we have to kind of rehash and compare this event to every other event to try to, I mean, ideally, we are trying to kick around and figure out what is the norm? What is the assumption we're violating? How can we talk about these things better? And how can we set better social norms and social rules and enforce those? And then sometimes we're just bringing up old events to dunk on each other.

01:54:36dlamz i just feel like I'm seen the same discussion of that london post a dozen times
dlamz perhaps part of the problem is I try to use lobsters as my reprieve
grayhatter_ it's not about "doing their time" that's a legal implication... the remaining problem is a social one
it's not all the constitutional convention or the you know sixth grade social studies version of the constitutional convention just to be american about it yeah d lambs i think you're sort of there's that xkcd about the lucky 10 000 You are not the lucky 10,000 who's learning that for the first time, but every time we have one of these threads, that London post is only, I think, six months old. And I know I see it rehashed on HN every couple of weeks too. And every time it gets rehashed, somebody goes, wait, what? grayhatter_ freedom of association is an important aspect of humanism
And learns it again for the first time, especially because Jamamp_ "Today's lucky 10,000" effect, haha
grayhatter_ he's not worth talking about
dhh is doing the racist coward thing where he won't explicitly say i don't think people with different skin colors count as citizens of a majority white country you know he won't explicitly say that but you know he picks the statistics to imply that real strongly where grayhatter_ specific actions, maybe, but as a person, it's much better to ignore them and allow them to fade into history
grayhatter_ deny them the attention they seek
statistics he chose only matter or only make sense if you realize oh he's picking the ones that are about race i'm i'm not summarizing that well but luckily it's been rehashed a dozen times but it's it's that little bit of indirection where because he was a coward about it we have to explain the he's doing every time

01:56:33So jam amp, yeah. Boy, do I not have a good answer for that one, but that is a really good question.

01:57:01Jamamp_ There's rarely ever a good answer for these scenarios.
That also leads into like, you know, right? grayhatter_ "done their time" is to satisfy the legal construct, not the social one
twitchtd unrelated but I saw main is failing tests so I opened a PR to fix it: https://github.com/lobsters/lob…
And I'm going to avoid dragging in like nine more things, but you know, I think at this point, everyone has had the experience of there is this song or this book or this movie that I think is wonderful art, that is beautiful, that was personally meaningful to me. And then the creator has done something reprehensible. Thomas, I just fixed main like an hour ago. Is it still failing and I failed to fix main?

...49And I think answering the question of like, what do we do with... So JamMap, I think your question is much bigger than I'm... grayhatter_ some one has "done their" social time, once they've taken enough action to correct their mistakes... if you're still a toxic piece of shit, you're not entitled to any compassion or understanding
twitchtd basically the helper needs to be private
ever going to be able to guess an answer to especially on a twitch stream like i don't know is this the pure or is this main itself ah

01:58:35Yeah, gray header. That's a pretty good catch. Thank you, TD. That's a good catch. And it's from one of the PRs I merged in that was broken because I broke main. So let's get you merged in and get main fixed. So I can do that pretty mechanically while we're continuing to figure out how do we run a just society. Right? I'm saying it a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but That is exactly the question we're trying to figure out. And it's a little above my pay grade. Jamamp_ @grayhatter_ That's true, I was definitely relating it to prison time for breaking the law. But I wonder if it still relates. Prison is a structured way of punishment, but our social barrage of figures for their views kinda seems similar but just unstructured. At what point do we as society relent on the barrage if someone has done their due diligence in reeling back their views, or something like that. Not to start a deep discussion, but I get what you mean
Mostly I remove links to startups and I don't have a great answer for that, unfortunately.

01:59:54grayhatter_ look at hyprland, I was always on vaxy's side, the whole thing was a pissing match that didn't need to happen... but look at how vaxy behaved? he went out of his way to evict assholes and improve his community
Gray, how do you keep dripping auto mod by speaking spicy? Jamamp_ @grayhatter_ Yes, and like I mentioned it doesn't seem like DHH falls into this from the discussion here haha. I don't know DHH or the controversies that well
so yeah jam amp another one that's really useful maybe a couple of examples are we've had things that were very technically controversial for a while systemd is one of them rust, and its whole borrow checker was one of them years ago. And the current ongoing one is the training or the use of LLM tools. And I say these are the technically want technical ones, but I wouldn't say that these are cut and dried technical arguments that won't die and get rehashed they also include personal components, you know, not as. salacious and individual as like the rape allegations against Jacob apple bomb. But. Definitely criticism of the personalities involved in system D and whether they're collaborating whether they're being honest or or right. And you know system D is. I mean if it wasn't for that thread about. Just literally we had one in the last week, I would have said that one is totally settled down, so it only took 10 or 11 years but. grayhatter_ Jamamp_ prison (in the us) should be treated as rehabilitative, but it's treated as a punishment for some action or behavior, not for who you are as a person... people decide who they want to be around, not specifically which actions they like... going to prison solves for that mistake, but it doesn't fix your personality, that's why after "getting out of prison" people still have more work to rehab their reputation, and prove they are worthy of forgiviness for mistakes they should....
Now we kind of pulled that up. dlamz the "vibecoding" tag has already gotten a bit better as of recent months. I think the "they aren't useful" sentiment has pretty much evaporated which has been nice.
grayhatter_ they should never have made
There was something about a dependency. What was it?

02:01:56Flat pack. Yeah, there we go. And it was kind of, this thread was a big one, stayed civil, which, boy, was not the case when systemd really started taking off.

02:02:13greyhatter let's not distract into re litigating each individual one of these because we're talking about controversial topics generally. and doing stuff like. Throwing out an unjustified assertion viewers into trolling about them. there's a rhetorical thing people do. Where. Jamamp_ I agree it was a bad metaphor for what I was trying to say
And it happens in every single one of these discussions and most other technical arguments, by which I mean primarily technical arguments, because it's always a people problem in the bottom, where people kind of throw out a slogan or they throw out a position and they don't justify it at all. And that's just sort of a way of waving the flag, of baiting a fight. grayhatter_ I'm only discussing the social aspect of "serving time", and why it's doesn't count as an apology
by saying, oh, my position is so incontrovertibly right that I don't even have to explain it. Where's my tribe? Yeah, I don't know.

02:03:38grayhatter_ and not worthy of forgivenesss
So that's weird. I opened a window and these two swapped.

02:04:10twitchtd I'm looking forward to reading pushcx's book on maintaining large online communities
grayhatter_ ^ right
td you know it's funny you say that but the book that i have been taking notes towards is my my working title is something like moderating small communities because lobsters is not a large online community you know you look at our stats we have only a couple of hundred comments a day which is a lot compared to where we were a few years ago

...45twitchtd I'd buy your book
But this is like, you know, a subreddit that has never made the front page, you know? This is not a large community. grayhatter_ 10k comments a month is a lot
And part of my resistance to the adjective large is we're really narrowly focused. You know, like just this morning, I removed some business news. If we were broader on topic, God, it drags in so many problems. If we had images, oh, that's an infinite well of pain of trying to moderate images.

02:06:43grayhatter_ I love that votes have a power curve number more vs comments
davidofterra @grayhatter_ A subreddit of 200k can easily have 1k comments in 12 hours.
yeah and you know speaking of scale all right so d lambs just to kind of jump back to the comment you originally removed especially after talking through all of this off screen you could probably hear my keyboard hammering away there i deleted the comment you linked to because yes it feels like doxing and i removed the two replies because we're not going to litigate moral geopolitics on programming forum it's moving too far off topic directly into one of the most contentious things in world events that's you know like a thing i say is that we how have i put this before On the about page, I put that we don't have an invite system because we are the secret cool kids clubs of everybody with top 1% IQs and we're all seven feet tall with the most moral agreements. Like, we're just people. The invite filter exists because otherwise we'd be buried in spam. grayhatter_ I disagree
There's no reason to think that our opinions on geopolitics are especially moral or especially correct, which is not to abdicate from the importance of trying to figure those out. Just there's no reason to assume that we're going to do any better on that than Hacker News or Reddit or anything else. grayhatter_ people who spend a lot of time thinking and talking *are* more likely to be correct
So when that stuff is off topic, it's just like, you know, let's not get ourselves. We are not the elite.

02:08:45Jamamp_ I fear I have many examples to disprove that hahaha
dlamz thanks for slogging through all this
More time thinking and talking are more likely to be correct. Jamamp_ Though proving the "thinking" part is difficult
I don't know I have some 2am dorm room sessions, where I kind of want to disagree, I guess, I see the general trend you're saying they're great header, but I think it's a pretty weak effect. grayhatter_ do you want to disagree because you actually agree? or just because you can think of a lot of counter examples?
Oh, speaking of 2 a.m. dorm room sessions, yes, proving thinking is infamously hard. There's no invite system that can protect us from pea zombies, right?

02:09:42grayhatter_ i.e. how would a group that does less thinking, be more likely to reach the correct conclusion?
Is that, I think we've kind of run through all of those. I mean, this is a good point to transition to my queued up topic. Why is this gone? Oh, it's the line break.

02:10:06pushcx https://mashable.com/article/tw…
As long as we're talking moderation I regret to inform you that there will no longer be. grayhatter_ lol, I didn't realize there was any toplessness on twitch
nudity or apparent nudity on this channel. On this stream. As much as i've joked about having a hot tub stream. You will not see my breasts or genitals concealed by objects or sensor bars. Yeah, I think this one was a video clip and I'm not going to clip on it, but click on it for obvious reason. But there was a woman who did a fundraising stream and you know how like when you see a newscaster sitting behind a desk, they do the close up and you can see the head and shoulders. Well, you could see her head and shoulders and it was very apparent that she was not wearing a strapless bra. Because you could see the top half of her breasts. And so this is... I don't remember if this is... Yeah, after a bumpy few weeks. Apparently this was becoming a running thing. You know, I put this in the list just because I wanted to make the joke that, you know, you're no longer going to see me nude on this channel. Not that you have ever seen me nude. The cat is nude. I think that's allowed. And I don't mean to be flippant against the very serious conversation we just had. But like, there are really not easy answers to a lot of these things. And we're just going to be struggling through them forever.

02:12:06I mean, that's okay, right? Like my programs are always going to have bugs. We're always going to struggle through bug fixes. If you live in a house, your house is always going to be falling apart on you, right? You know, you live in an apartment, it's your landlord's problem. Hopefully they want to actually fix stuff. That's another rant. Yeah.

...46All right, it's been a minute or two, so probably nobody is typing a really long question or comment to continue the meta discussion, but. Seriously, D lamps, thank you for asking. Well, for for highlighting a missed moderation action and. Getting it really important policy questions of how do we want to run and moderate the site? Thank you.

02:13:24RchrdB We could be typing a really long question but typing really really fast ;)
Let's just keep stealing good ideas from how other communities do it too. I don't know. Ah, Richard B. Well, that gets back to my, you might've missed it, but I was saying I want a nice fancy keyboard. RchrdB I just tuned in a minute ago
RchrdB ooooh
pushcx https://www.moergo.com/collecti…
RchrdB that looks nice and shiny
Wrong clipboard. Why am I fighting my clipboard? Come here. Yeah, look at these. RchrdB I am acutally a sucker for RGB stuff
I really like columnar keyboards, but some of the stagger, like either it matches the proportions of your fingers or it's awful. So I gotta find somebody locally who has one of these to just sit for 10 minutes and play with it. grayhatter_ I'm a fan of the sofle
Oh, oh, it's funny. I like the shape of this. I can't stay on the RGB. I would be like hardware disabling it.

02:14:27RchrdB ah yeah ergonomics for input devices are extremely personally specific
pushcx https://keebmaker.com/products/…
ChaelCodes Hi!
RchrdB I have this problem where all the nicest mice on the market are made for people with much bigger hands than me for instance
grayhatter_ not quite as ego, but it's subtle ortho is nice
is so full of keyboard oh nice i have a an iris which is very close to this layout grayhatter_ s/ego/ergo
I think that's come up on this stream before.

02:15:05pushcx https://keeb.io/products/iris-c…
And these things are very, very personal, but where was it? Is it in my, oh yeah, it's even in my history here. The thing I learned about using the iris is I use the function keys way more often than I was realizing. So I've got one of these, I've got a plank. I gotta put this stuff up on. What is it? There's a swap subreddit for reselling mechanical keyboards. Apparently a function row, as much as I love the four or four and a half row keyboards, I apparently need my media keys.

02:16:22Jamamp_ I used the Kinesis Freestyle for split+tent but I got too fed up with not having good clarity on the arrows keys because they weren't separated from everything else
So this one, this is an accessibility fix. Jamamp_ Which is a problem for every ergo keyboard probably, tbf
Federico has made a lot of accessibility fixes in the last six months or so.

...50Yeah, Kinesis Freestyle is a nice one.

02:17:01Yeah, I find I really do like having a... Oh, Dedicated Arrow Keys. That was the one that bit me also on the Iris. I didn't realize I was going to be ChaelCodes I have the kinesis, but I don't use it anymore.
RchrdB one day I'm going to become rich and famous by building a keyboard with foot pedals for chording
grayhatter_ my arrow keys are [shift] esdf
such a fan of that Oh, hey chill Did you see ChaelCodes I did see it in the Twitch notification!
ComplexPlane Meandered the realms of planck/ortho/minimal keyboards years ago but insist on normie 75% layouts now
grayhatter_ basically vim keybindings everywhere
modmail on my plan topic list we had a giant medic discussion unless i zip through these prs we're not going to get to it but i'm trying to use modmail some more and had some tweaks you know richard b i want to say i've seen those especially foot pedals for cording especially for switching modes in vim

02:18:21RchrdB ah yeah the classic "vim clutch"
pushcx https://www.keychron.com/produc…
Jamamp_ Keychron K8 for me :D
nor me 75 layouts yeah i think that's kind of where i am my oh i don't have it here let me turn this thing over so i can read its number this is my current daily driver I don't need a number pad. I never want to see another number pad on my desk again. I just don't do that many spreadsheets. But I really like the, why is everything, all right. I really like the low profile. I have the numbers. Oh my God, stop popping things up.

02:19:38twitchtd I use a keyboard with a numberpad, but there's a nice coating of dust on that side.
Firefox is just adding stuff in random places. All right, so we want to do.

...49OK. RchrdB I have a no-numpad keyboard because a full size one wouldn't fit on this desk, but numpads are super useful for about... 5% of videogames. just having an extra few buttons.
This is me breaking things.

02:20:11RchrdB like people use numpad keys for multiple radio channels in some milsim games.
You know, if I was a serious gamer, I would buy one of those mice that has, like, nine buttons under the thumb. But I am a very unserious gamer.

...28RchrdB oh yeah those are cool.
One of my friends is a serious gamer and has, like, three different mice that each have, I don't know, eight to ten buttons underneath the thumb. I don't know how he manages all that, especially he switches between them. And I don't remember if it's based on game or what. To each their own.

...56dlamz I rock the svalboard 😈
I really want to nitpick submitter, which is what we usually say, versus op, which is the Reddit term. And on this one, I think I would prefer not to introduce Reddit slang, but everybody knows what it means, so let's just do it.

02:21:28And this is still not closed.

02:22:01RchrdB "OP" mainly has the advantage of being shorter
RchrdB on the other paw I don't mind long badges
Accessible.

...12So is Svalbard another keyboard? pushcx https://svalboard.com/
Oh, a data hand. twitchtd I'm going to go, see you next week
Man, I haven't thought about these for a while. I didn't know anybody was still building these. So I'll throw the link in for anybody who hasn't seen this kind of keyboard. dlamz it's very much a "use it if you need to" thing
grayhatter_ is the ball a mouse?
dlamz very happy it exists though
you put your finger in the little well and then you can push up down left right or press like pressing a keyboard so you really don't move your fingers around they just kind of twitch in place i'm speaking of keyboards i would be curious to use

...58dlamz one trackball for pointing, another for scrolling
dlamz it's all 3d printable
They have so many custom parts that it's like, I want to say the first one of these was invented in like 98, 99. And every, you know, like somebody builds it and they make it for like two years and then they go out of business because it's so expensive to make all of these custom parts. And then like, Five years later, somebody else is like, I'm bringing it back. And then they make them for two or three years and go out of business. RchrdB oh noooo
If it's printable, that's, you know, maybe it's a little more sustainable. It's interesting the way the costs on custom parts are coming down. And I see that someone was very thoughtful about designing. Like I was talking about with the Glove 80, I'm very hesitant to RchrdB the economics would be so much better if each of the companies involved had sold the polymer moulds to the next company to try it :D
I mean, aside from the huge price, even for a custom keyboard, to buy one not sight unseen, but hands untouched. And I see that this allows very precise tweaking to one's individual anthropometry. So that's pretty neat. RchrdB afaik moulds are like $10k per part or more?
What is free fidget? dlamz every single thing is adjustable. lots of people with various ailments in the discord that use them (myself included)
Oh, if you want to play with one. Five bucks. Ooh, I thought that other keyboard was expensive at like $385. $1,050 is a little bit of a step up.

02:24:46Well, here's something you can't just have Claude knock out for you on a weekend, right?

02:25:06grayhatter_ fuck, for 1050, buy the 3d printer instead :D
Yeah, you know, DLAMs, that looks really attractive because, you know, to a first approximation, I would say just about every programmer has had some kind of repetitive stress injury of some level of severity. You know, like every coal miner has gotten some amount of black lung. NoGoodNick_ I have a Glove80 keyboard
Every 70s insulation blower has gotten mesothelioma. Ours is a lot less lethal than Null's at least. Oh, no good, Nick. Is there any chance you're going to visit Chicago and I can come type on your Glove 80 sometime? NoGoodNick_ I do have a carrying case for it
You don't actually have to answer a personal question like where you live. NoGoodNick_ and Chicago is nice
But, you know, I'm being selfish and dreaming about getting to play with one because it looks very nice. Yeah, I saw it came with one. Who doesn't need an enormous carrying case? Yeah, Chicago's not just nice. It is the best city. Speaking of meta, after that last thread on LLMs a week or so ago, Hunter expanded the flag definitions and updated them on spam. NoGoodNick_ I find that I don't use it that much and still haven't really gotten used to the key arrangement
It looks like this author has caught a couple of typos. Great. Well, that's a no-brainer to merge.

02:26:45I think I don't need to see the build on this. And I don't remember if that goes away after I've merged one of their PRs or after I've approved on a PR that got merged. But either way, the CI minutes are free. Oh yeah, the transition to a columnar keyboard, let alone one that arranges the keys in a well, is pretty significant.

02:27:45Let's not make the change particularly useful.

02:28:13Which one is this? grayhatter_ nothing is that urgent for lobsters
significant amounts of lm generated content urgent news honestly i would rather not do urgent news at all you know i keep describing lobsters as a forum or a community NoGoodNick_ somehow I have no RSI after using computers heavily for thirty years
grayhatter_ it's ok to be 12h behind the news cycle
Or a link sharing site and I try to avoid calling it a news site, even though we look a lot like social news we look a lot like reddit we look a lot like. hacker news. In the topicality guideline which is going to be just up here. One of the things I wrote was. Will stories be more interesting in five years or 10 years? And breaking news rarely is.

02:29:25RchrdB yeah cuz we'd much rather see old reposted technical stories than breaking news
And part of that is, it's a treadmill, like I have actually worked in the news. I've worked at the I was at the Washington post.com newsroom and the amount of effort that goes into Trying to be first to a story or trying to get things out as quick as possible is Well, programs would say non-trivial. And I would prefer that we didn't try and take that on and worry about responding to breaking news. Even though, you know, we don't look anything like a journalist production. That's not how I want to say it. We don't look anything like a newspaper. We are a very different kind of service journalism for... A field to help understand itself. RchrdB well, if it's something people care about really strongly, *someone* gets to it quickly just about every time anyway
Generate by a computer. OK, I see where you're going with this. It's good to put it in both.

02:30:54This is OK and we just had. We just had a thread. It's going to mention oxide because they had a nice, yeah, here we go.

02:33:07RchrdB I think breaking-news on lobsters (when it's relevant) is not something that really needs to be actively encouraged cuz it happens enough already.
Put it in a comment or did I break in. The OSA, well, it must have been a commandant, right?

02:34:41Think of. Where do we go with this pull request? Do we want to?

...56Where was?

02:35:05Where was hunters coming? grayhatter_ if you don't have a suggestion, always ask a question
Here.

02:36:18So what do you want to say for next steps for this PR? Building up that context.

02:37:20yeah you know this is one of those cases where i start writing something and then i realize halfway through i'm being silly

02:38:24Amen.

02:39:08let me say significantly author where'd it go

02:40:23I'm writing this in a really contingent way. People disagree on.

02:42:31you

02:43:23yeah that's a guideline for lm's question mark because i'm still hung up on whether all the stuff that's lumped under is still going to be large language models that use the same basic attention mechanic that's been so revolutionary or I mean, that's been exciting enough, but like, I don't want to get bogged down in whether something counts as an LLM or not. That's what I'm trying to say.

02:44:15RchrdB "LLMs or technologies with the same purpose"?
Then let me off screen.

...41NoGoodNick_ Generative AI could be another term? depending on your purpose here
generative AI. I really dislike that adjective, especially because of the way that they are trained and can be made to regurgitate their training data. And especially to this question of would people agree on the definition I will admit I am being a little pedantic about generative AI. The real strong detractors, one of their points very strongly is they'll call it things like the plagiarism machine, or say that even when it is producing novel, really the only thing it's doing is style transfer on existing structures that were in the training data. So I don't want to land on a term that people are going to loathe. On the other hand, you know. RchrdB speaking as one of those detractors, I am okay with using the term "genAI" to describe the plagiarism machines
We end up with terms that are facially inaccurate all the time in. Well, I want to say programming, but all of human endeavor, right? So.

02:46:05Oh, well, there's an interesting nuance I hadn't considered. Thanks for sharing. GabiNun2 what's the point of having checks if they fail every time?
graefchen AI is fun and interesting. But the more I hear *some people* hear about it, the more disillusioned I get with it, because I feel like they have no idea how the black box works. limesO
RchrdB that was a very diplomatic reply <3
so where's this gotten to okay so hugo has addressed a bunch of stuff and so github is hiding all of the changes from me thanks gabby noon i'm not sure what checks you're talking about if you're talking about if you're talking about the pull request checks i broke main GabiNun2 yes that's what i'm taking about
And that's where those are always failing, because when I break main, all of the PRs that are based on main break. GabiNun2 oh and they didn't update
GabiNun2 i gotcha
However, thanks to me making one fix and Thomas making another during this stream, main should be back to green now. Well, and even if they update, get... Git runs these on the wrong commit. It runs them on the tip of the pull request branch. RchrdB a friend of mine once broke rustc with probability 0.5 briefly and apparently it was a real fun time :D
GabiNun2 so it's githubs fault?
It doesn't run them on a hypothetical merge commit that would be this on main. And so if I fix main, these do not update because they are showing you the wrong thing. GabiNun2 okay
Jamamp_ at work we've enabled github merge queues to solve that. it makes a fake merge into main, runs CI, and if that passes (the PR on top of main) then it does the actual merge
no gabby i'm saying it's there's plenty of fault to go around like the primary break on main was me the second break on main was a contributor and that one managed to make it to maine because of my previous one and then this third thing is github i don't know There are so many things where getting down to a single root cause is reductive. You lose a lot of info.

02:48:29Yeah, the merge queues are absolutely vital for, well, RchrdB the root cause is always undercaffeination
know i want to say like any project above a certain scale but i do actually just think this is a misdesign in how full requests run the build under caffeination you know if the root cause is under is always under caffeination you may want to consider getting checked for adhd that's not any type of insult but like RchrdB no point, diagnosed
RchrdB I mean, already did :D
I have a bunch of friends who have said things like that, and then over the years they've gotten diagnosed with ADHD. Okay, well, pardon me skewering you then.

02:49:32NoGoodNick_ I was thinking GenAI as combination of several technologies including language and visual, whether transformer and/or diffusion, as a bigger grouping than just current LLMs.
GabiNun2 also your mic sound is really low
And you know, I say it in a silly way, but for anybody who's listening and wonders if they may have ADHD or may have autism, one of the big benefits of going and talking to a mental health professional and getting diagnosed with that is you get access to a whole big toolbox of strategies and a whole big library of other people figuring stuff out. My mic sound is low. Hmm. There's maybe a hair low. Let me nudge it. RchrdB yeah I have you turned way up too
You know, it may just be that I was leaning funny. I have a pretty directional mic to avoid. There we go. GabiNun2 i can stlll barely hear you
All right. Now, how do I sound? I'm peaking a little higher. How about this? GabiNun2 okay that's good
All right, that's about the range I usually come in. Jamamp_ i think it makes sense to some degree. CI on the PR's head is deterministic. trying to run a PR CI on the hypothetical merge is a function of point in time because it depends on what main's head currently is. you always need to run ci again before merge (like through a merge queue) to avoid problems
You can barely hear me? RchrdB oh that just went from quiet to perfect
RchrdB just now
That's weird, because the OBS meter is in a pretty normal range.

02:50:51GabiNun2 now it's good
Went from quiet to perfect. Jamamp_ i think twitch is always super quiet. i have a browser extension to boost the dB on my twitch tabs lol
All right, well, I did just turn up the input volume a little. All right, well, thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. It's also possible that... ChaelCodes You sound better
I'm getting tired because I've been going for almost three hours now. And when I get tired, I get quiet and mumbly. So I may have just drifted into that. RchrdB ah that makes sense
Oh, how funny. Yeah, I know barely enough about audio and decibels and loudness and compression to be dangerous. I wouldn't even say I know enough to be competent.

02:51:44Ah, yeah, that. OK. All right, so Hugo's written a commit on. All right, so I just dropped that off.

02:52:14ComplexPlane "when I get tired I get quiet and mumbly" I feel so seen and heard
That's nice. No, complex plane, you mean seen and not heard.

...29Jamamp_ eyooo
OK, so avatar is the new class. Yeah, yeah, I'm hilarious. RchrdB eyyyyyy
In case it's not obvious, I'm an uncle like eight times over. All right, that's great. ComplexPlane true
Little key value there.

02:53:03As an uncle, I'm allowed to make really terrible puns, even though people mostly think of that as dad jokes. It's appropriate for me to make terrible puns because I'm a faux pas. NoGoodNick_ XD
RchrdB boom
I love that dumb joke.

...30RchrdB nice
ChaelCodes LOL
yeah here we go this is this is where the thread get or the streams go after a couple hours like i get tired i get quiet i stop making sense i get more interested in really really dumb jokes this is why i try not to moderate when i'm tired all right so where honestly so if this Saves? Does it save to the dang active storage? Or does it just save to disk? RchrdB I could not moderate tired. The decisions would get increasingly hasty.
We have the fetched avatar, sure.

02:54:27OK, that would be a lot of complexity, though.

...36Yeah. So we also have a open feature request for allowing people to directly upload. That could move to active storage. That doesn't really need to be part of this PR. yeah so i'm i'm tired so i'm let's just

02:56:15All right, I'm going to... Where's my... I'm going to throw this up. I'm going to be back in like two, three minutes here. And then Chael, if you can stick around and chat in a second, I would love to talk about ModMail with you and whether that's something you'd like to contribute more to or... what would work for you because yeah, as I've been touching it the last week or two, I keep coming up with little feature requests and I don't know if I should like make a list and throw those at you or do them myself. So I'll be right back.

02:59:07alrighty thanks for patience let's see let's turn off the little off there we go cool all right so

...36Chael, any chance you're still around and can type? If not, no worries. I can stumble around ModMail on my own for a second because some of the stuff I want is very minor. Some of it is just refreshing myself. So let's see. Where are we at here? I've been... had the stream on for almost three hours but i've also missed like five of the last 10 streams so i'm okay going a couple extra minutes here just to make some progress on mod mail or at least mod man message As many notifications. OK, so yes, the notifications. So what do I? I lost my scratch.

03:00:47That's not happening.

03:01:01so modmail one second i've been talking for a couple hours so my throat's getting dry the modmail system was fairly recently added by chael it's a long desired feature for Moderators to talk to users and. Vice versa, we have a one to one private messaging system that we've used since the site's inception but. That doesn't allow us to have a conversation with a couple of people at once, which we would really like and. it doesn't allow mods to collaborate more effectively and there is like a speed bump where we have to remember to make notes out of private messages if we're going to collaborate effectively because because there is a lot of activity on the site mods need to be able to look at the user profiles and know what kind of moderator interactions people have had. Otherwise, you tend to rehash this or be like, oh, we warned this guy about self-promo, and then he did it again two weeks later. Well, that's somebody who just really doesn't care about following the rules. But if we don't know two weeks later, right? RchrdB oh it sounds like you want something like zendesk where every conversation is like a ticket and all the (moderators | support agents) can see the ticket message queue.
So what kind of things do we need? We need a creation form. Needs a space above. Richard, yes. That is, Modmail is very much like a specialized ticketing queue. And I would like it to... There is a bunch of internal moderation features that I would also like to move more towards a ticket queue model than what we have right now. like, for example, flagging.

03:03:29So one of my tiniest nitpicks was it needs a little vertical space in the form. So creation form, we got a couple of things.

03:04:16Let's look at the field so like I was just staring at this, and so I can type these off the top of my head, but I realized nobody else has seen the stuff i'm thinking about recently. mail form. yeah.

03:05:18I'm going to say the user. Move username to the top.

...39RchrdB Can anyone remember when did the suggest tags feature land in lobsters? it's one of my favourite things.
Suggest has been there since just about launch. Must be like late 2012 or early 2013. RchrdB Ah! Thank you.
Oh no, much later than I thought, 2015.

03:06:21And then there's also an issue number if you want to look that up.

...37Let's kind of work down this top to bottom.

...50so we use this in a couple of different or i want to use this in a couple of different ways the primary way of using modmail is talking to people who've had stories and comments edited or removed the secondary thing which we don't do enough of and i i hope modmail makes a lot easier is having discussions with people who flagged things all right so let's write this down

03:07:49grayhatter_ you shouldn't be able to flag something without writing in text, why
Well, that's, you know, some of it is if you pick from the reasons list, like broken link, we can instantly tell what that's about. RchrdB Oh the flagging thing is interesting uh not something I think most moderation systems really deal with? at least not first versions of moderation systems.
And like, you know, we click on the link and we see it doesn't resolve or we see it has a paywall and we go, yep, and we're done. Some of them, especially spam is getting a little bit vague. And so what I would like to get to is

03:08:24almost a one-click for the mods to be able to say, start me a Monmail conversation with everybody who flagged this as spam. And I don't know off the top of my head

03:09:13grayhatter_ that's belongs in a comment, not a modmail
Why does it belong in a comment and not a mod mail?

...23grayhatter_ > why do you think this is spam, is a perfectly good question to ask as a comment
We end up with. Yeah, we end up with like. grayhatter_ equally, this is spam, is good feedback to get as a comment to the submitter
Two downsides, there is lots of meta discussions, and because everybody cares about meta, The meta tends to come all the way up to the top and displace the actual topic that something is about. Which is especially annoying when it's meta like I don't like this site's layout. The other thing is grayhatter_ so I'm hearding that meta threads should auto sink themselves to the bottom
It's a really harsh public shaming way for new users to learn about Community norms, even when it is very friendly and well intentioned and it's not always friendly and well intentioned to be frank. It is read by a lot of new users as. What does that thing called.

03:10:35RchrdB gatekeeping?
There's a wooden contraption that like you would put people in for public shaming where you could throw tomatoes at them. RchrdB stocks
davidofterra ducking stool
Like it's a wooden board with holes for the hands and the head and it locks shut. And then the person is left in the town square to get like kicked and jeered at for a couple of hours. The stocks or a ducking stool. Yes. grayhatter_ people need more practice giving, and receiving critical feedback, while it might make lobsters more tranquil, it doesn't make for a better community
That's and I don't want, that's real close. Yeah, no, we're talking about the stocks. RchrdB When I do flag things, I often wish I could leave a free text description of why, *that isn't visible to anyone except for moderators*, including not visible to the submitter
let's say that's going to say like punishment. Sometimes I guess these tags correctly. I don't want like stocks and bonds. Oh, wow. the financial ah singular verse plural sure there we go so gray header i don't want the comments to turn into the public stocks where people get punished all that does is drive off the people who feel least comfortable which is new users and minority users.

03:12:46grayhatter_ I mean, I was driven off without any harsh criticism, so I think you're highlighting an awareness thing more than the root cause of driving people off
Wait, Richard, I'm not following your knots. You want a free text description. Oh, that's only for moderators. RchrdB free text, only moderators
Yeah, and that would be like Modmail.

03:13:09I follow. That's another one is.

...30RchrdB and I don't want the submitter to feel bad if I say something critical there, yeah
And then.

03:14:20davidofterra @RchrdB Reddit support custom reporting options for flags that work like this. They're helpful for smaller subs, but at scale people use them for trolling. This would probably be less of an issue on lobste.rs because flagging isn't anonymous.
grayhatter_ RchrdB ask a question then, discover the value that they see, that you don't
grayhatter_ be curious about what they're trying to explain, even if you think you already know the topic better than they do
yeah david that's a thing for flagging and honestly we could probably have better analytics for flagging

...52And I say dashboard because mods can see who flagged stuff. This tends to show up, but we're starting to grow out of the size where that's always obvious. And if mods aren't reading every thread, and we're not because most threads are pretty chill, it's more possible for this stuff to go under the radar.

03:15:58You know great header you're giving really good advice for comments, but one of the things we've tried to avoid doing is. RchrdB grayhatter I can't think of any situation I've been in where that would help? I'm not flagging things because "I know that topic better than the submitter". That's not a flaggable thing.
Having a flag for quality and I bring that up because you say, even if you think you already know the topic better than they do. A. thing we are constantly fighting against in the design of the flagging system is. RchrdB if I know the topic better that's just a story that I'll move on from.
people are flagging things they disagree with or think are wrong, whether that's wrong as a matter of opinion or wrong as a matter of fact. And so one of the reasons I want to be able to have a discussion with people who've flagged is this is also true of moderators where we're like, why does the link seem broken to you? Because it looks fine to me.

03:16:58There was some more meta on that.

03:17:12grayhatter_ RchrdB I'm talking about the case where you might want to give feedback to mods, but not to submitters because you're trying to protect the submitters feelings
Used to have a low quality flag. Yeah, and it came up in the recent LLM thread.

...32davidofterra There also used to be an Incorrect flag.
Jamamp_ As much of opponent I am of LLMs/AI in general, I do unfortunately think it'd be good for moderation flagging/awareness. There's simply too much content to moderate manually without taking up all your time as the main developer of lobsters (or for other sites). But then you get cost concerns, and how exactly to implement would lead to a lot of debate (does it simply point out when a discussion is getting spicy for manual review, or do you eek into letting it make automatic decisions as well)
i'm thinking farther back we had a yeah another one i can't remember if we had a meta thread when the yeah there was an incorrect flag on comments and there was a low quality thread on stories i think i'm remembering that right

03:18:15Jamamp_ This is why I'd not want to make a site that requires moderation. I wouldn't want to waste my time with it, and I wouldn't want to lazily hand it off haha
grayhatter_ I believe there's nothing that you would say to mods, that you can figure out how to say to the person without... if you're better at being tactful, they'll feel like you're on their side, which is the reason people often feel bad
yeah incorrect and low quality and the user interface for flagging used to look more like reddit where you would click a down arrow and that was how you would flag and so really it was downvotes had to have one of the list of reasons but what happened in practice was People just used incorrect or low quality as a catch-all, I disagree. And there wasn't a lot of signal and there was a lot of meta threads of people saying, well, why did this happen? And then having an argument over it. And they were not productive conversations. And flags were not a useful tool to moderators because they just meant disagree. And even a while after they were removed, people would sometimes just, it still happens now, where a flag just means I wanted to punish this person or it means I disagree and I want to hurt them and I want to see the number go down. grayhatter_ I wonder if those meta threads might have had a better chance to be useful if they happened directly on the post/link
And so I've made a lot of UI changes to make that less attractive. Like when you flag a story or a comment, you stop seeing its score, period. You stop being able to respond. Jamamp_ Easy: add an "I disagree" option for flagging, and have those flags go into a black hole lol
grayhatter_ ^ this is the right decision
And the flag button is now text up here rather than a down arrow because people always show up assuming the community norms and of Reddit and HN because our UI is very similar to those. grayhatter_ having an I disgree flag without it effecting the flag state is great idea
So it's a bit of a brain dump about trying to get good signal out of these things, which is a mix of UI and discussions. JamMap Fair, it sounds like you would not enjoy being a moderator.

03:20:34grayhatter_ this is dumb, is very useful signal I'd want to see
Yeah, gray header, I don't know. One other way we could do it is like a mod mail. We've joked about having a disagree flag that has an effect of zero. But it's one of those jokes where it's like, ha ha, but maybe it would actually work.

03:21:04RchrdB I do like the suggestion of disagree being written to /dev/null.
grayhatter_ downvotes degrade the quality of discussions, refutations improve the quality
I don't know, maybe that one's worth an experiment.

...44grayhatter_ flags are better than downvotes
Jamamp_ It's self-filtering. Let people voice their disagreement but it filters away from actual mod mail. Everyone is happy haha. Until they learn it is a no-op button
grayhatter_ my old boss used to say something to me a lot, that I find is very useful
grayhatter_ bias for action
Or another thing great had a riffing on your preference for these things happening as public conversations is a question. Should it be possible to. publish a MOD mail conversation to the. story or comment.

03:22:20grayhatter_ try adding the "disagree" flag, without any debate, see how it goes over, remove it if you find it's not better
And out flags. After the delay.

...38grayhatter_ experiment more, add overhead admin less
Gray header, I think. grayhatter_ (partially joking)
Bias for action can be great in a workplace and. you know, Wikipedia where they have an infinite supply of volunteers, but we have a very limited amount of volunteer time. And the biggest benefit of me streaming these things has been so many more people have started opening PRs. Like, you know, I spent the first two hours of the stream merging PRs and that saves me many, many hours of coding. It is hard to buy us for action when We are trying to build fairly strong social ties. Because communities have a memory. In a way that like A workplace has a goal.

03:24:24grayhatter_ yes, I understand
grayhatter_ I used to think stuff like that was much more important than I find it actually is
grayhatter_ which is why I made that suggestion
RchrdB Have fun <3
grayhatter_ none of that is a refutation, just context
Fair enough. Well, I look forward to your PR on the score zero disagree flag. It's going to touch a whole bunch of queries up and down the site.

...51grayhatter_ I think people pretend to care about that stuff, but very few actually care
grayhatter_ that's why it was a joking suggestion, I have no idea the LOE required
pretend to care about that stuff hmm i don't know i don't have i've become very reluctant as i age to make too many guesses about what's happening in somebody's head because i am in fact not a nubus i am not a jackal cat girl able to weigh other people's souls

03:25:23grayhatter_ I usually can lol
grayhatter_ because people don't like me
yeah well i mean it's a i called it a half joking suggestion because it's not a huge amount of work and it could plausibly work you can well why aren't you a moderator and you know if you have that could you also start screening political candidates you don't have to screen the ones that have my preferred policies i already know their hearts are good but you know grayhatter_ lmao, same
The other ones, the ones I disagree with.

03:26:12All right, so what else did I want out of my mail? Oh. Creation form.

03:27:37grayhatter_ you say that tongue in cheek, but genuinely I don't believe believe evil exists, just people who "can't see" the implications of their behavior
grayhatter_ ignorance can sometimes be an excuse
Hmm.

...42Can't see the implications of their behavior. grayhatter_ the harm being the goal, yeah
You know, one definition I've seen of evil, though, is things that are harmful with the goal of causing the harm rather than You know, so it's sort of a way of equating evil and sadism.

03:28:55grayhatter_ that's the classical definition
grayhatter_ the refutation definition I hear often is that what we call "evil" is just lack of empathy, or people not caring what happens to others.
I want a reminder or a concept of open or closed.

03:29:03So like if I send a message to Alice, that's like, hey, knock it off. I really like to hear back from Alice. OK, I will knock it off or I disagree that I shouldn't knock it off. But what often happens is Alice never acknowledges And then Alice does it again. grayhatter_ error: you're not allowed to comment until you respond to this modmail
And I'm like, All right, well, if you're not talking to me, I have to eat you. And it would be much nicer if you know, so that's why I said, I want to know if they've read it. But then also, I want to have a way of having it bubble up in my work queue so that I can send a second message after a week that's like, no, Alice, really, you got to reply. Maybe that's just a

03:30:20Thank you.

03:31:06grayhatter_ if you're sending modmail, (because sending that mail is an adverse action against a user), you should set the bar at some behavior that would require a response
davidofterra Reddit gives moderators a viewable history of mod actions for users. You can see that all their items that have been flagged and what has been done with them.
grayhatter_ the default judgement if you ignore an inquiry from a mod is "banned", any other response can be judged as appropriate
yeah david that's visible on our user profiles right now and greyhatter let me check up on a couple of things you've said catch up yeah honestly i do think they want to become almost that obnoxious on some of them that is a feature i was going to get to in like Another five lines of brain dumping. And I know there is the like South Park meme of I think it's like a mall cop who screams respect my authority in a silly accent. grayhatter_ cartman, yeah, lol
I could laugh at that one more back in the day. And now, honest to God, I think like, God, it's hard to, all right, I can't pick a number fairly accurately off the top of my head, but a significant percentage of the bans that i have done on lobsters over the years would not have happened if the person would just fucking respond to me and that's why so many of these things are i want it linked here i want it linked here i want a banner i want this and then eventually yes i want a no you can't comment and submit until you respond to this mod mail you really just have to talk because so many of them are I say, don't do self promo. I say, take a break from that. grayhatter_ that's something I do often with my nephews that works fantasticlly
I say, quit calling people bad names, just very basic stuff. And people don't respond to it. And then they do it again. And if it's, I have tried and tried to talk to you. The reason I do the bans is to prevent future bad behavior. And when someone will not even acknowledge the conversation, can't have any hope that the bad behavior is going to stop for anything less than a ban and so like i have said it on a number of mod messages have included sentences like i need you to respond to this within you know i'm usually pretty generous on times because people have stuff going on but like within 72 hours within a week like just grayhatter_ everytime I scold them, I always require it's a conversation, "explain to me why I'm mad" "explain to me what I just said" and the conversation continues until they can explain why I'm annoyed... I find that actually makes the problem go away
grayhatter_ fair conversations fix most problems... but you have to respond or it's not fair
talk back for the love of god talk back and so if i can make the system a little bit more obnoxious explain to me why i'm mad yeah no i have done that kind of thing a couple of times too of can you see what this pattern is can you understand why i deleted your comment Can you give me a reason not to expect you to flame Rust developers again? That kind of thing. grayhatter_ all rust developers are dum
Just any kind of, can you show me that you have internalized what I've said or what the community norm is? And you don't have to agree with it. It wouldn't have to be the norm that you would write and enforce. But please just evince some understanding that you understand what the rule is, that there are rules, that you are not commenting here because you enjoy hurting people, and this is a way you can do that.

03:36:05grayhatter_ ^ this was a joke for anyone coming in late who might miss the context
Well, great, Hatter. grayhatter_ (the b omission was intentional)
Luckily, the archive has the whole video and all the chat. And so people will see that you are riffing on me being silly.

...19Yeah.

03:38:06grayhatter_ I was thinking just for anyone who joins the stream late, I would feel bad if they first thing I saw was "language you like makes you dumb" and didn't know I was trolling
about the goal.

03:39:07so like an idea of what i mean by serious problems would be for example the person who advocated for political violence they have not yet responded to me that one is like i mean i will send them a sentence that says hey if you don't respond to me i am going to ban you over that we have had to ban people who have called for political violence before grayhatter_ I one of them
There's only one time it comes to mind. And there's a thing I have talked about.

...51You are one of them. I can only think of one.

03:40:04davidofterra The race way guy?
grayhatter_ oh, never banned for it, but I'm currently advocating for political violence
grayhatter_ I'm angry enough that violence is the answer
yeah so this conversation a big meta thread was are you doing so on the site because i don't see it i thought you just said you weren't active on the site oh yeah the You know, David, I don't mean to be flippant, but we have actually had like two people who've said that.

...59grayhatter_ yeah, disabled my lobsters account, but I meant in general
No, this is not the meta thing I wanted. This is the thing I wanted.

03:41:43all right so there's i think there's all the things that i want out of the mod mail system off the top of my head and a couple ideas that i maybe want and now i want to chase chael down and ask her if she wants to keep working on it and if she feels ownership over it do i want to pack some of these things in now because they feel urgent i got to think about that which is You know, now that I'm at like three and a half hours, I'm definitely past where I can think about that. Yeah, so I'm going to wind down the stream. If there's something you want to talk about real fast, you can talk about it, but you got to type faster than gray matter with a very fancy columnar keyboard, right? grayhatter_ lol
See that callback humor? Oh, boy.

03:42:50grayhatter_ I'm a pun enjoyer
least i'm not calling back to my terrible puns right all right well so my next scheduled stream is going to be tuesday afternoon 2 p.m chicago times i have been terrible about the tuesday afternoon streams for the last like month so you know To be fair, there's a little asterisk on that next scheduled stream. We'll see how that goes. Hope to see you all then. grayhatter_ :D
And let's try to have productive meta discussions and look forward to Gray Hatter's many pull requests that I'm sure are coming before the next stream, right? In seriousness, just a big chunk of what I'm doing as a mod the last two or three years has been encouraging people to get involved i'm trying anything i can we'll see how that goes that's like the that's that's a good place to end there is a a classic quote by ronnie coleman who was a champion bodybuilder in the 80s And it's an incredibly powerful mantra for understanding the world. And Ronnie said, everybody want to be a bodybuilder. Nobody want to lift a bunch of heavy ass weights. theyagich thanks for the stream!
And on that note, I'm going to wind down here. Enjoy your heavy ass weights. I'll see you next time. Take care. grayhatter_ cheers dude, thanks for streaming
Oh, hey, Yagich, thanks for dropping in.